LOGO-L> Re: ToonTalk versus MicroWorlds

["Bill Kerr" <kerrb@senet.com.au>]

Ken Kahn wrote:
>It is an interesting idea to make a typically textual program like
factorial
>in Logo more visual as Bill suggests. Unfortunately, the textual form
>suffers as a result since so much of it is devoted to visualizing what is
>happening. I think one of the strengths of ToonTalk is that you can see a
>ToonTalk program execute in an animated fashion that is the same as the way
>you constructed the program.


Yes, you can't do that in MicroWorlds. ToonTalk makes a new and interesting
contribution to visual programming. But if I'm teaching a class of students
and half of them learn best visually and half of them learn best by text
programming (hypothetically) then I'm better off choosing MicroWorlds if I
want to cater for both, because ToonTalk doesn't cater for the text based
learners at all. Certainly, I'd see the need for further research into kids
learning styles using ToonTalk and MicroWorlds but the point I'm making is
that ToonTalk doesn't cater for diverse learning styles but only one
learning style (visual) whereas MicroWorlds at least has some new features
like textboxes whose contents can be run as a program which cater for visual
learners to some degree (though not to the same extent as ToonTalk).

>In ToonTalk you can define factorial in many ways including counting up or
>down. For those who have downloaded or own ToonTalk, you can check out a
>recursive and a doubly recursive version at
>www.toontalk.com/English/programs.htm.


Yes, I'm sorry for being over zealous and misinformed on my earlier post.
I'm currently having a problem viewing these programs though because
ToonTalk keeps crashing when I flick through the sensor notebook. (I've
submitted a bug report separately).

-- Bill Kerr

>----- Original Message -----
>From: Bill Kerr <kerrb@senet.com.au>
>To: <toontalk@lists.best.com>
>Sent: Saturday, December 26, 1998 9:28 PM
>Subject: ToonTalk versus MicroWorlds
>
>
>>I've imitated Ken's ToonTalk factorial demonstrations using MicroWorlds. I
>>haven't put in the scales (to compare the numbers) or bird (to fetch the
>>answer) at this stage but they could be added if desired.
>>
>>I think MicroWorlds allows for multiple representations of factorial
better
>>than ToonTalk. I'm putting this up as a hypothesis to be debated /
refuted.
>>ToonTalk only permits a visual representation (which also requires
>>abstraction -- Dusty erasing numbers in the thought bubble) whereas in
>>MicroWorlds you can show it by either a high powered recursive procedure
>>(most elegant but difficult for unsophisticated users) or a visual / text
>>combination, which seems to me to require less abstraction (and so would
be
>>more accessible for more kids).
>>
>>MicroWorlds solutions:
>>1) Most elegant but difficult:
>>
>>to factorial :no
>>if :no = 1 [op 1]
>>op (product :no  factorial :no - 1)
>>end
>>
>>2) Visual / text combination (partially imitating Ken's ToonTalk
solution):
>>
>>Create 3 textboxes:
>>text1: starts at 1, shows number incrementing
>>text2: shows number whose factorial we want to compute
>>text3: shows computation of the factorial occuring
>>
>>Make 2 buttons called reset and factorial
>>
>>to reset
>>text2, ct
>>insert 1 + random 10
>>text1, ct insert 1
>>text3, ct insert 1
>>end
>>
>>to factorial
>>if text1 = text2 [text3, pr " insert (se "factorial text2 "= run text3)
>>stop]
>>settext1 text1 + 1
>>text3,  eol
>>insert char 32
>>insert "*
>>insert char 32
>>insert text1
>>wait 10
>>factorial
>>end
>>
>>You could add the scales between text1 and text2 by creating a few extra
>>graphics in the shapes centre and adding some setsh to the code where
>>required.
>>
>>Of the 3 solutions available this is the one I'd initially show kids
>because
>>it has a visual component and the abstraction is kept to a minimum. In
>Ken's
>>solution Dusty has to erase  numbers 4 or 5 times and I think kids would
>>become confused by this. I might be thinking this just because I know
>>MicroWorlds better -- I'm not saying the MicroWorlds visual / textual
>>solution is easy for unsophisticated users but suspect it would be easier.
>>
>>I think Ken's solution is really interesting but am not convinced that
kids
>>would find this process more accessible or meaningful than the MicroWorlds
>>solution.
>>
>>-- Bill Kerr
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>

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