Re: LOGO-L> Questions and problems

["Olga Tuzova" <olgatu@ort.spb.ru>]

Chuck Shavit wrote:
> 
> Brian Harvey wrote:
> > 
> > "Olga Tuzova" <olgatu@ort.spb.ru> writes:
> > >...
> > >This my experience showed that the students are very poor in most
> > >important points. Their ability in observation and analyzing data is
> > >very-very low. 
> > >...........
> > You won't like it, but here's my answer:  This student has been ruined
> > by grades, and won't get any better until she's in an environment
> > without grades.
> > 
> >.......
> I agree to every word that Brian says.  However, I think that there is
> another very important counter-motivational factor related to the use of
> computers for math education.  I think that students need to feel that the
> computers add value to their math education.
> 
> If you give your class graph paper and rulers, even the slowest students
> will be able to come up quickly with a series of measurements of
> edge/diagonal of squares, and relating that to the Pythagorean formula.
> By requiring them to use a computer language for the same purpose, we
> introduce unnecessary difficulties.  In this case, the difficulties are
> related to operator precedence, the difference between infix and prefix
> notations, and the need to remember the names of built-in primitives like
> sqrt, power and quotient.  All these IMHO slow the math learning process.
> They also slow the computer programming learning process.

Chuck, though I can't say that I'm satisfied with this my experience, 
I can't also agree with you.
As to this particular case, the students had had experience with 
working in Logo environment and after we had discussed the goals of 
the work and what should be done to achieve them, some of them 
were working on their own and very successfully. You should see their 
surprise, when they got that the ratio diagonal/edge of a 
square is independent of the square size. (I'm afraid, there is 
something wrong with my grammar, sorry. These English tenses is a 
real turmoil:-))
What was the purpose of that work? Using suitable tools 
for development of such skills  as observation and capability for 
analyzes and synthesiz. You may use graph paper and rulers, but you may 
use computer and Logo as well. Why not? 
The students had just learnt something about polygons and we were 
talking about things which were very well familiar to them.
And, I'm not sure it's easy to draw polygon with 5, 8, 10 ... sides 
using paper and ruler. Why not to use a  computer to do it? Before, 
I'm going to make them to solve an "angle problem", that is, they 
will have to estimate an angle of the arbitrary perfect (?) polygon. 
Without computer.
It's dull and there is no motivation behind all this?
It's depends on how a teacher will lead the lesson. I'm sure, any 
problem could be turned this or that way to become interesting. 
Am I wrong?

>I think that students need to feel that the
> computers add value to their math education.

The students were able to get interesting results much more faster 
then they could have done this with the paper and ruler.
And, they've got a notion about  a computer experiment.
Again -- why not? Are these new skills, new knowledge of no good for 
the students?

This work is just a part of our curricular, it's episode. I'll be 
thinking about logic puzzles and riddle solving also.

But, the work under discussion has also rights for existence, I 
think.

All the best,
Olga

> 
> I think that Brian's idea about logic puzzles and riddle solving using a
> computer is very neat, especially since it can demonstrate to kids the
> added value of a computer. 
> 
> And I think that teaching computer programming to kids is a *very*
> important end in itself.  We don't typically try to teach math to student
> at Biology class.  Why should we teach them math at programming class?
> 
> Chuck Shavit

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